Systems that do harm, psych important things, typical mind fallacy, and argument dynamics

{crossposted from my tumblr here}

A dynamic I think I’ve run into repeatedly:

There’s some kind of thing that, as it exists right now, does levels of harm. At the same time, some people get psych important things out of it (to be clear, notout of the harm aspect itself, here).

Some people *don’t* get psych important things out of it, might get psych important things out of the other direction, etc. They might themselves get hit harder by the harm, or they just personally run into only the harm, since as noted they’re not getting things out of it. They can also have some typical mind fallacy about this (generally on the ‘underlying, wouldn’t even consciously think of it’ level). So when they call out the harm etc, they can take the approach of ‘get rid of the whole thing, it’s just awful’.

People who aren’t concerned with the harm *and* get psych important things out of the thing or have other reasons to support it then often regard those first people as enemies and reject the calling out parts. (Depending on people and dynamics, there might be typical mind fallacy here too, there might be not caring, etc).

This then puts into a pretty bad situation the people who *do* care about the harm and would want it not to happen, *and* get psych important things out of the thing. They’re unlikely to be comfortable with the first group, who not only don’t give weight to something psych important for them, but don’t see it. They’re unlikely to be comfortable with the second group, who aren’t caring about the harm. Neither group is likely to like them, and they can get caught in crossfire a lot. There isn’t particularly much space for ‘ok, let’s do work re things that can give this psych important things and *not* do this harm. How can we do that’ (this can often involve trying to identify the psych important things, which can also vary between people).

And then there’s often a lot of really sucky argument dynamics, on overt levels (what you see in arguments) as well as not (who might not even be entering the discussion even though the topic affects them and they have a perspective and etc). And other things.

Kink shaming, sex shaming, and double standards

{Originally posted on my tumblr on Sun Jan 5 2014}

[I suppose my last few posts could be seen as a sort of series on ‘while we’re working on a new approach here are some issues I have with the old one’].

Sometimes, seeing what the people I disagree with are saying is helpful to me in figuring out my own ideas. As such, I occasionally like to go and read the writings of the radfem and such kinds of anti-kink people. A common strategy I’ve noticed while doing this is that of announcing that kinky people are way too concerned with their own orgasms. Here’s the most recent example I’ve found, which puts it as

your ‘wah my orgasms tho!’ sex pozzie bullshit.


Which – well, that certainly seems like an awful thing to be doing.

(sidenote: personally, I’m anorgasmic and as such clearly can’t put my orgasms before anything. But since I’ve yet to see anyone having the idea that kink is OK, but only for anorgasmic people, I’m going to take ‘orgasms’ as standing in for a more general ‘pleasure you get from it’).

But on the subject of awful things – here are some other things I’m doing, and am likely to continue to be doing, regardless of what decisions I make about my kinks.

In all these cases, I’m putting my wants before people. Is that less awful?

And yes, these are things a lot of people criticize, but I don’t tend to see it get the same kind of yelling, or the same kind of ‘therefore you are horrible scum’ attitudes, let alone advocacy for violent execution.

On a similar note, it is very widespread in our society to enjoy movies and video games about things like war, pirates, bandits, and terrorist attacks. Most of the media we consume and enjoy will have sexism, racism, ableism, transphobia, etc.

And yet, again, while there is certainly criticism, it is usually accepted that people do this, and most things addressing it are about how to do it.

And this despite that in both these cases, my complicity with the badthings goes beyond psychologically perpetuating – I’m directly financially supporting them.

Overall, the particular negative attention and emphasis placed on kink doesn’t seem to make much sense.

Unless you look at it in the context of a culture with an already existing and strong idea that orgasms and related pleasure are evil and sinful and dirty in ways that clothing and movies and educational choices are not

And then I think it does make sense.

(Important note: The idea here is in no way that people should feel more bad about their computers, food, movies, etc. The idea here is that given how full of badthings our world is, a lot of things are going to be connected to badthings. And we can (and I think should) fight the badthings in as much as we can, and be aware of the connections. But we should also live our own lives in which our own boundaries, wants, and needs matter and are valid. And I think this applies to kink as much as to the other things.)

Brainstorming: ‘non mainstream’ and ‘connected-to-bad-things’ are not equivalent categories.

{Originally posted on my tumblr on Sun Jan 5 2014}

Subtitle: this asexual masochist would like to have a word on some anti-asexual attitudes in kink-shaming.

[My last brainstorming post kind of turned out to be a proper post instead. This one, I think, is closer to brainstorming, which is to say, I think I know what I’m trying to say, but I don’t think I’m yet at the ‘saying it very well’ point].

In both of my previous posts about kinks-connected-to-real-world-bad-things, I’ve been specifying before I start that I’m using the ‘I have a thing for this’ meaning of ‘kink’. In the same post where I talked about that definition, I also talked about another one – “Often, kink doesn’t just refer to having specialfeelings for anything, it refers to having specialfeelings for things outside the mainstream”. Now, as far as I’ve seen, in a lot of anti-kink circles, it is common to see that definition of kink and the connected-to-real-world-bad-things category of kinks as one and the same.

I strongly disagree with this. First, there are absolutely kinks-connected-to-real-world-bad-things that are perfectly mainstream – virginity is a big one there. However, more to the point of this post, there is a whole subset of non-mainstream things that I would say are not connected-to-bad-things. This would include the subset of things that people like on a purely physical-action level. Which, in my opinion, includes some forms of pain things.

One of the things that tends to severely put me off the radfem type of anti-kink people is that they have a tendency to put all pain things in with the connected-to-bad-things category. Which, as far as I can tell, tends to look rather like ‘well, I (and people I know) find this unpleasant, so therefore it’s bad’.

Now, to clarify. Lots of pain kinks are absolutely in the connected-to-badthings category. Example: kinking on enduring pain that you hate but are being forced to keep taking, or on the idea that you’re being punished with pain for being a bad person, or on pain in the context of roleplaying torture. However, lots of sex kinks are also in the connected-to-badthings category (example: being used), for pretty much any sex act one can name, but these physical sex acts themselves tend to be much more positively regarded. I am talking here exclusively about the ‘I like it because I/my partner finds it physically/mentally pleasurable’ type of pain kink (‘mentally pleasurable’ here means ‘my brain just likes and desires this’). (Note: a lot of my own pain kinks are the connected-to-badthings type. I’m talking here about the ones that aren’t).

The reason, I think that this is such an issue for me is that the things that it is most common/accepted for people to find physically/mentally pleasurable don’t really work that way for me. As a major example of this: I don’t like open-mouthed kissing. In fact, while I’m not particularly sex-repulsed, I am much closer to kissing-repulsed. It feels wet and squishy, it sets off my hygiene issues and meanwhile it causes me no physical and mental pleasure whatsoever. Most sex acts, for me, are incredibly emotionally complicated and not particularly physically pleasurable. Being hit with things, on the other hand, is something I desire, it gives me physical and mental pleasure, it’s what can get me happy and euphoric and after-glowy.

But the thing is, I know my feelings are not universal. If I did – if say I thought that everyone experienced kissing physically the way I do – it would make perfect sense to me to go around to people who talk about liking kissing telling them how awful they are for inflicting such an unpleasant sensation on their partner, and don’t they know it’s dangerous and can transmit diseases, and they’re not even using a dental damn. It would make sense for me to tell them that there must be something really terrible making them think they like it, and I feel really bad for them and hope that someday they’ll be able to heal and get past it and start experiencing a healthy sexuality by liking the things I like instead. But because I’m a minority, I know that my feelings are not universal. I know that when people say they like kissing, they’re saying this because to them it feels good and is awesome and desired and endorphin-making. But also because I’m a minority, people tend not to realize this about the things I like.

Anti-kink people of the type I’m talking about will tend to hide behind the idea that causing pain to someone who doesn’t like it is violence. Which, yes, it is, and that’s horrible. But kissing someone who doesn’t like it is sexual assault, so that’s making the wrong comparison entirely.

This also connects to the reason why I feel asexuality ties into this. Because, for any physical interaction, there are going to be people who experience it negatively. Any physical interaction, when done without consent, is a violation. So saying that some physical interactions are uniquely and always bad, while others aren’t, means the distinction has be made based on some intrinsic assignment of value: ‘these are the bad things and these ones aren’t because that’s just the way it is’. And, pretty much invariably, the things put in the ‘not bad’ category, the good category, the healthy category, the category being privileged, are the very things that are likely to be unpleasant or not positive for me and people like me, and the things we are likely to be pressured into doing and abused for not liking.

So I guess to come to a conclusion: I get my physical and mental pleasure off of different physical actions than is standard in our society. It bothers me when people treat the things I enjoy as things no one could ever actually enjoy and if they think they do it must come from something terrible. It bothers me even more that this seems to come with its own form of compulsory sexuality, where a particular set of intimate physical actions (a lot of which are not particularly positive and even negative for me) gets held up as what should be the healthy, pleasurable, positive intimacy that is the ideal for everyone. And what this comes down to all together is: if you tell me that my preferences in physical enjoyment are wrong, then either you are being a part of compulsory sexuality (whether in a ‘you should do this’ or ‘hopefully, if you get the healing [‘fixing’] you need, you can do this’, or ‘this is just better and healthier’ way). Or you are telling me ‘well, you’re so broken, you just shouldn’t get to experience this kind of pleasure at all’. I don’t think it’s very hard to see why this upsets me.

Why I don’t believe in condemning feelings

{Originally posted on my tumblr on Thurs Dec 26 2013}

So, I said in my ‘Brainstorm: Categories of kinks connected-to-real-world-bad-things‘ post that

It would be helpful to have a more concise word for this, but I am deliberately not using ‘problematic kinks’ because a big part of my view of this is that that’s not correct. I believe in analyzing feelings and noticing connections to bad things in the world, and working with that. I believe in condemning violating actions. However, I don’t believe in condemning feelings on their own, and to me kinks fit into that.

and since that’s a pretty important part of how I approach all this, I wanted to elaborate on it.

Important definitions:
-I continue to use ‘kink’ here in the ‘have a thing for this’ meaning. If I want to talk about stuff people actually do instead, I will say ‘practicing a kink’.
-I use ‘feelings’ here to mean ‘mental experiences your brain gives you that you can’t directly consciously control’. So, jealousy is a feeling, ‘feeling good’ is a feeling, when I have to come back and make sure I’ve turned the stove off three times in a row because otherwise I can’t stop thinking that maybe it’s not off after all, that’s a feeling. And ‘this is hot to me’, ‘this gives me kinkfeelings’ etc are also feelings.
(sidenote: if you personally can directly consciously control these things, that’s excellent for you. I can’t, I know that plenty of other people can’t, and if you want to argue about this, then please go think about being self-centered and ableist, and how the only person who has first-hand experience of their mind is the person whose mind it is).
-I use ‘condemning’ to mean any form of ‘you are doing something wrong by doing this’.

So, all that out of the way, here’s why I don’t believe in condemning feelings, with the specific example of ‘here’s why I don’t believe in telling people they’re doing something wrong by having a kink’.

1. It does harm
Believing that you’re doing something wrong/are a bad person/etc for something you can’t actually do anything about is very psychologically harmful. It can also very directly lead to other kinds of harm. People stay in abusive relationships because who else could love someone like them, people don’t feel like they can expect to have their boundaries respected in play because ‘if only horrible people are into this, then how can I expect that’.

2. It isn’t useful
A very major purpose of telling people they’re doing something wrong is trying to bring about a situation where they’re not doing it anymore. But since in this case, there isn’t the option of ‘just stop doing it’, that purpose can’t be achieved this way.

3. It blurs the line around actually violating things
Condemning kink feelings along with actually problematic kink practices blurs the line between the two. It’s possible to have kinks connected-to-real-world-bad-things and practice them in a way that violates people, and it’s possible to have kinks connected-to-real-world-bad-things and value consent, respect boundaries, and treat people as people. This difference matters, and saying things like ‘you’re all the same, you’re all scum’ erases and minimizes that.

4. It makes it harder for people to deal with such feelings in good ways
What feelings they have isn’t something people can control. How they think about those feelings, what examiniation they give them, and what actions they make is something people can control. And recieving support instead of condemnation is integral to people being able to do this kind of examining work and take those actions that are congruous with their own well-being and with the world.

I have kinks connected-to-real-world-bad-things, and other feelings connected-to-real-world-bad-things. I want to examine them, and think about them, and decide what actions I want to take with that thinking in mind. And I want other people to be able to do this as well, and I want to live in a world that is welcoming to this.

To be Crossposting

So as is pretty obvious, I haven’t written much on here in a while.

I have, however, been writing – it’s just that most of it has been on my tumblr instead. I’ve been meaning for a while to start crossposting things over (I like wordpress for having comments and more indexing so to speak methods), but not actually getting to it. Well, right now I have spark, so I’m going to actually start.

I will try my best to continue and minimize delays, though that will depend on how the getting-to-it holds out.

Also, I will try to put things in the order I wrote them, but I might accidentally skip some, in which case if I find them later I will add them in and note this.